conversations

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[00:00:03] Hi, my name is Melissa Delaney I'm joined today with my guest and collaborator, Beck Pope, who's also part of the arts collective that we founded a few years ago, sociocreative trust. Welcome back.

[00:00:29] Thank you, Melissa.

 [00:00:31] Nice to have you here today. And part of the project.

[00:00:36] Thank you, it's nice to be here, too. 

[00:00:40] So I thought we would talk a little bit about this presentation on the sanctuary project and what we've been doing so far. Beck is my first collaborator on this project as part of sociocreative trust. We're hoping to be the first artists that work together in a more formal residency program later on in the year.

The project is themed around sanctuary and the idea of sanctuary. Let's talk a little bit about sociocreative trust and how that started and evolved as a collective. And tell us a little bit about your involvement and experience with SCT?

[00:01:34] My involvement. So just to step back. So, we are four friends that came together as we were working in the same organisation and coming together.

[00:01:50] We realised we had the same values and ethics. Although we all have different practices, but at the core, we found that we kind of had the same philosophy, the slow, slow paced practice, slow living, thinking about things on a deeper level. And this all resonated with me, so we started when we got together more formally and began sociocreative trust. By this stage we were having discussions all the time at cafes when we were catching up.

[00:02:40] And yet then it formalised, I guess. As a member, I participated in exhibitions and interactive dinners that we organised and facilitated. 

[00:02:56] What I like about our practice is that I can go at my own pace and we don't force each other to be involved in every single project idea that we come up with. So that really works well for me and I think for the rest of the team as well. Yeah. 

[00:03:20] And where are you based currently in the world?

[00:03:24] I am currently based in Melbourne, Australia.

[00:03:32] That's interesting because they're very similar to my thoughts around socio creative trust in and how it evolved. But how also, I'm really happy to have observed how it evolved as its own entity and really interested in that observation rather than forcing and pushing things to be this kind of expected entity. So many people seem to be striving and pushing out shows and having to do certain quotas of public practice projects a year. This is more of a long play kind of thing, a lifetime practice.

[00:04:26] And whatever happens in that, in how we weave in and out of that practice is a real point of interest for me. 

[00:04:34] Well said. I like that. I like that. It's a lifelong practice. And can we weave in between projects and ideas? Yep.

[00:04:52] Go ahead.

[00:04:56] I lost my train of thought.

[00:04:58] Oh. what you said was really interesting how we formed, because each of us, either as the four of us or as one on one, it seemed that lots of times when we got together, as you said in cafes or when we're catching up as a group, we started to realise that we were delving and having these really interesting conversations. This has been a key part of our practice so far, and we're really wanting to get some of the stuff that we talk about out there to a wider audience to other people that can engage with that and also be part of those conversations.

[00:05:41] It's been quite organic from the get-go.

[00:05:45] We never strive to put KPIs that we must do this project. We must do this. And we need to aim for that. I think that's been what's kept us going. And yeah, I think the discussions that we always have been really interesting, we talk about current things, but we also come back to those core philosophies that we share.

[00:06:21] We think about, as a group and some of the things that have really become even more vital in this current external environment, in a world where a lot of systems and structures seem to be broken at the moment. Or that people are smashing them apart. We hope to be rebuilding them. And we're seeing this happen with massive global disruption in Australia, starting with the Christmas fires and total devastation in so many communities. 

[00:07:00] And even before communities had a chance to recover from that devastation, the global pandemic came along with Covid19, which we're still experiencing to a great degree. And it's the first time globally we've ever shared such an experience, something of this magnitude. And now we're seeing a global wave of the Black Lives Matters as a movement. Its gaining even more traction than it ever has historically. So, we are at really interesting times in terms of our external environment. And then interestingly, what has been laid over that with being given all this kind of space to be introspective and to be reflective of what's happening in our external worlds. A very interesting time.

[00:07:59] And we had to work from home. 

[00:08:08] I had no expectations of what I would think and feel during the time, especially when it started. And I know there's been lots of articles and people talking about this rollercoaster of experience, you know, where, it's like a honeymoon period and drinking wine and talking to friends and Zoom.

[00:08:29] There’s this down period where you retreat and go, oh my gosh, what's happening? What am I going to do with my life? I think what's been consistent for me is that, yes, I have this space more to think about things that are actually important to me.

[00:08:56] Then the discussions and information coming through about Indigenous lives and death in custodies.

[00:09:08] All those experience, awful experiences coming to the surface. It doesn't really surprise me right now because people do have the time to really think about things that are important instead of being this busy, busy, busy, busy society and life that we all seem to have lived right up until the pandemic. And we've said from the beginning, you and me.

[00:09:35] In all our calls and conversations to this day we are very grateful and acknowledge our privilege during this time. Having a job, having a roof over our heads, having food, good food that we can and that we can still have connections with our people.

[00:09:59] You know, there are a lot of people are experiencing something else, a different template, you know, loss of jobs and all those things.

[00:10:11] And this this whole thing about returning back to normal. I don't want to return back to normal.

[00:10:23] I think the word privilege is something that we're hearing more and more and really something I've been thinking about a lot. And yesterday I had the thought that even the idea of thinking that way, returning to normal is a place of privilege. It's so privileged to think that something is going to be normal after all of this happens, because we do have to kind of, in a way, let go and grieve the world as we knew it to create whatever is going to come out of this in terms of our systems and our organisations, etc. and to think, oh, all of a sudden, snap, we're just going to go back to the way things were. I think that’s a position of privilege. Absolutely. And even in terms of this research project that we're working on and in my research, I've been thinking is a bit like gentrification, isn't it? And we've talked a lot about gentrification in the past. Some of our projects have really touched on gentrification. So, in a way, is sanctuary a form of privilege? And then when I researched the kind of historic origins of sanctuary.

[00:11:50] Sanctuary was something that related historically back to churches and places that were safe havens for people, that's where the word comes from. So, it had quite religious connotations. And then in times of trouble, we found that people could always go to a church. And in the olden days, church was this place, this safe place, this sanctuary. And it was removed from whatever was happening externally to that. It was a place that people could go in times of great trouble to find peace and to be safe. I don't see it as being that historic sense as a thing of privilege. But if you looked at it in a really surface contemporary way, sanctuary could be very, very easily misunderstood with the kind of contemporary wellness movement, which it's not. And I'm also a wellness practitioner. I say that with very much an understanding of where I come from, my personal practice. But there's a lot of backlash against wellness movement, for example. I think the word sanctuary is being watered down a little bit. And the people's understanding of what sanctuary is, I mean, it's more than meditating. It's more than, you know, burning some sage or something like that. There's more in my mind to the theme of sanctuary.

[00:13:26] My thoughts that surround sanctuary at the moment are around that traditional meaning. It's almost like I'm delving into this church within oneself because, I'm not religious at all, as you know, but definitely spiritual and open to hearing other people's experiences with religion. But I think what has surprised me is that. Sanctuary for me at this time has kind of meant that I in this particular time, with the pandemic as well as a backdrop, is that I've actually been able to think about my values a bit more and, and think about other people's suffering and how I can be a better ally, how I can be of service in the world.

[00:14:35] What I would think is the bedrock of religions, those core values. 

[00:14:47] Approaching this project, I initially thought, oh, okay, I'll talk about my yoga, which I’m not doing at the moment. My meditations, all of which unfortunate I'm not doing either much at this time, which has again surprised me. I've had to broaden my horizons and think actually, what is it? What is my sanctuary?

[00:15:26] Paused. 

[00:15:51] Even things like meditation and yoga, which I'm trying to do daily in this current environment, isn't enough. Sanctuary for me right now is creating a home environment and it's a breather and it's a breath of fresh air. And it's a place that I feel safe in. And I think a lot of people are doing that within their homes. There's that idea of the domestic environment as being a sanctuary at the moment as well. I'm well, thank you one of the lucky ones. So that's where it gets back to us. That is kind of the underpinnings of privilege. Yes.

[00:16:44] What we've both been reflecting on bit more is the privilege. And what is that? What does that look like? We've always asked that question. You know, inception of a city is what does it look like? What do you know? OK. The system is not working. What does the system that we want look like?

[00:17:08] Yeah, exactly. Well, it's that we've always we known that things are broken and not working. Well, what does that future look like? How do we set up systems at work? How do we dismantle those structures and privilege? These are things I'm really interested in. And it's not that we have those solutions, but these are the conversations that need to be happening within our organisations and communities. 

[00:17:47] And I suspect it never really worked. A lot of these systems have never really worked. I mean I mean, we've got a classic example, right. You know, right now and always is police brutality. That's something that's not working. Why aren't we fixing it? It's terrifying. The spaces serve the community, but they're killing communities, literally. Why is that happening?

[00:18:18] Terrifying. And that brings us again to the idea of sanctuary.

[00:18:25] There are a whole lot of people within our global communities and populations who have no sense of sanctuary in their lives, who live in a constant fear and who don't have that sense of what we have in that sense of being, even though there might be in high moments of anxiety in our lives. We still have that privilege of tapping into that concept of what sanctuary feels like.

[00:18:59] Recently we started with setting up on the SCT website as part of the research a project page and my research journal, and also your Journal of Observation. In your practice in the past, you use photography, as part of your kind of observational tool. And seeing things through your own eyes and bringing them to the viewer in a way that we might not have seen, which is your narrative of seeing the world around you and bringing that to your audience.

[00:19:52] I've seen you've posted pictures of nature. 

[00:20:00] Through this pandemic, nature gives me great relief.

[00:20:10] Yes, yes, I agree. And I think, look, I really struggle to start my posts on the site.

[00:20:27] To put the things up that that relate to me right now. And those first few pictures of little moments of nature. I thought was a good start because I think yes, as humans, that's where we always seem to go back to, to nature.

[00:20:57] We seem to want to reconnect to nature so that those little moments where in each picture I actually was in the moment and it was, you know, there was a tree, there was there's a picture of a tree, which I thought to myself, I've never seen that tree before. I walk past it all the time. There was a leaf that had fallen to the ground. And I loved the colours. It was those distinct moments where I knew I had stopped, and I had really, really noticed the moment. I thought that was a good step. And then I was in my second place was on some art pieces that I had come across that resonated with me or just popped out. And I was, again, very present for them. I would like to add more text and add more context to my observations, which I will also. I have intention to respond to some of your posts. But for me, I'm a very, very slow thinker and my pace is quite slow. But when it all comes together, it seems to come together quite well. So, yeah, it's quite organic, which is what I liked about the project, too.

[00:22:13] Yeah. And what we're hoping to do from this these journals are then work out and we're trialling in terms of the structure of the web site to then the journals will form part of that. Maybe it is as an extension of the journals, we’d like to then formalize it more into the online residency where for a distinct moment of time we more artistically map out those places of sanctuary in our neighbourhoods, and in our lives.

In the first draft of the brief. I thought six weeks for the residency, but I think that's too long. I think maybe even five days could be long enough.

[00:23:23] Yes, I agree. I think something a bit shorter would be better for the project. And perhaps working up to a six-week residency. If it's another step.

[00:23:39] And then that way that would be us doing the shorter five days. And then both of us could then invite somebody else and that could be the other SCT members or somebody from our communities or somebody that we might want to approach that we don't know yet to come and do five days. And so, in my mind, it could grow as some kind of organic network, potentially with each person inviting another person.

[00:24:08] Mm hmm.

[00:24:09] Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I also envision if four to five days. I would want it to be a proper residency way. That's all you're doing for five days, taking work and other responsibilities out of that equation.

[00:24:33] A five-day thing would be great. You are using the residency space as though you're in a real-life residency. It could even be blogging like we've seen some durational residency projects. People like Eugenia Lim, I think, who set up cameras in a gallery space, another Italian artist that I met when I was in Finland, Guila lived in a shop window for three days and videoed and livestreamed that experience. People were coming to the shop window at night and talking to her and giving her hot dogs under the door and engaging with her. I think Eugenia lived in a gallery space and slept in the gallery space for a period of time. We've seen a whole range of artists who have done that durational kind of performative work. When we enter into the actual residence space that it becomes immersive and performative as well.

[00:25:42] And something we've spoken about before, it's also this concept of time, and this in our practice to draw from what we've already discussed, the ideas from past conversations. Let's just say three years ago, they kind of shift to the surface now.

[00:26:11] Moments from what we've already thought about or ideas that I need to think through. Like, to use my residency to spend thinking through something I always want to think about.

[00:26:31] One thing I think is the luxury of residency programs. The few I've done, I've done probably about five physical residences, the luxury of residences as a form of practice. It’s one of my favourite forms of practice that gives me time to dedicate just on the practice and also connects me with other creative people. And this is why SCT is so attractive to me, because I very much love collaborating with other people. I find that collaborative exchanging of ideas and sparking off people that that you respect and trust and enjoy working with is a real attraction for me, in residency programs and also the SCT collective.

[00:27:35] Yes, same. For a long time, I thought I was a lone wolf, but actually I'm actually the opposite.

[00:27:44] I love working in a team. I love working with other people, collaborating with others, which has been which for SCT has been so unique because it isn't there isn't a lot of hard-core expectations. 

[00:28:02] And, you know, boxes that you have to tick for grants that we have to write and, you know, goals that we have to achieve, which has been good for really thinking outside the box, as they say, which is don't like that phrase, but, you know, it keeps a boundary sort of open. We never know what we're kind of going to think about next.

[00:28:38] And part of that kind of delightful side of the practice is that that can be the inspiration.

[00:28:49] It's open ended and that's the part of when I talk about the idea of social sculpture. That's why for me, as part of our practice, those conversations and ideas that we have are just as important as some product that that you might hang on a gallery wall. 

[00:29:12] Put out there as an art product or artefact. 

[00:29:19] Yes, that's it. I love that its open ended because it goes against everything, goes against the system really, and how people think about things, because you always as visual artists needing to produce something to go in a gallery, and need to perform something.